Vivian: OK. Let's, let's get back to that in a little, in a minute here. We can talk about the details. OK, Daisy. Do you wanna tell us where you stand?

Daisy: OK. Well, actually I just wanna to ask Bow a question. Um, I just wanna to ask him if you do have like obviously I understand what you're saying and probably pretty much most peoples' views are the same, but how could you make a law to make a standard for that type of thing, how could you say: it's ok for this person to have an abortion but it's not ok for a woman in her thirties who's not married, but has the financial ability to have a child?

Vivian: There's a wide grey area.

  Bow: Yeah, I don't know, it's, I don't, I'm not a law maker, I don't know that is still uh, just, uh, just my opinion. That's what I think, (Vivian: Exactly) and I, it should be talked about more. People that do make laws and people that do make theirs, you know, who have these problems and these situations come up, and we should be talked about.

Luke: But you're basically pro-choice, but you don't think you don't feel that, that it should be used as a form of birth-control for example. (Vivian: It shouldn't be abused.)

  Bow: If you have to label it, but I think, you know within the label of pro- choice or extreme pro-choice people, and there are extreme pro-life. But I'm more you know, in the middle of both of those.

Luke: Of course, I would say the same. I would say that I'm definitely pro- choice, but I think that yeah, abortion is not something that you just, you just, sort of do for the heck of it. But I don't think, I don't think that's any human, in a person's nature, I mean, if someone's gonna, gonna have a child, a woman is, obviously, is gonna have the child, there's gonna be some kind of attachment to, and some kind of like psychological factor there. That doesn't make it an easy decision in any, in any situation. I think if it's a repeated thing, if it's, it happens continually, there's a obviously problem there and I don't know, it's hard to regulate that (Bow: Yeah) but I also, I don't think that someone who's definitely not ready, and not interested in raising a child and isn't gonna give a 100%, or isn't just like, mentally and emotionally prepared for that, for that to happen. I don't know if it's if it's a wise move and if there not, if they're not fully committed to it. That's the first sign that it's, uh, no, shouldn't do it, shouldn't be done, shouldn't happen, do the abortion, give the child, like a fair shot a having a real life kind of thing.

Vivian: So both you guys are kind of in the pro-choice section but not very, you know, (Daisy: Pro-life) right.

  Bow: I don't think for the extreme pro-choice people who say like, uh, it's gonna ruin my career and this kind of thing, if that person has confidence in themselves, and I believe that they could rise above that, they could take care of a child, and then, I think once that they started to raise the child and they could, people do it all the time, they have careers and they raise children, they become successful. And the children go to college and they become successful, and become a great member of society. But did you say like to look ahead into the future and say no, this is just gonna ruin everything for me, so, I'm just gonna, you know, cut this embryo out, and it's nothing, it doesn't mean anything, but I believe that the, um, pro-, extreme pro-choicers say that it's not a life yet and, but I don't believe, I believe it is a life, it's not a human yet. But it is, it is life, like every cell in your body's life, plants are life, you know. So that's my opinion. (Luke: Yeah)

Vivian: OK, Daisy. Where do you stand? Do you have a firm stand on either way?

Daisy: Well, I'm definitely pro-choice. I believe that abortion should be, should be legal. But for different reasons. Not because I don't believe that a fetus is, urn, not a baby yet. I believe exactly the same thing that Brandan does, not because I believe that a fetus is not a baby at that point, I do believe it is a baby. Probably very soon after conception. Um, I'm in agreement with Bow, there. But, I, I believe it is a necessary evil of our society and that what we were discussing before sex education. We've been negligent and, um, therefore many women are falling pregnant and don't have an option of course there are these women that are career women and saying that it won't fit in my life. But if that woman is so selfish at that point. I would rather, there are so many children that are neglected, in our societies today, I'd rather she get rid of it than have it, because, rather than seeing another child being brought up in a, uh, a selfish home (Vivian: Right) with a selfish mother. But I do feel that if we go back to the 1950s where women were having backyard abortions, sticking coat hangers up themselves and damaging themselves for life so they couldn't have another child or women that are raped by their family, or strangers on the street and have to hate that child for their entire life. I don't think that's fair. I think the law should be there to protect women, and I think it's a total feminist issue. And I'm enraged when I hear men in government talk about it.

Vivian: Well, there's a lot of details about each side, you know, for example, I could just bring up the fact, um, lots of people like for women, lots of people think it's the women's choice, it is her body. No, I could always say. OK, but there are so many people that wanna adopt children but can't have children. Why couldn't this person instead of get, um, having the child or you know, and keeping it, why don't they have it wait the 8 months or 10 months, have the child and give it up for adoption to the couples who really, really want a child. But then, that person can also argue, hey, that 8 to 10 months that's a whole year out of my life that's changing my body and that really does change my life in a sense. And so maybe I don't wanna partake in something like that. And so that could be an argument there, and then here's another argument, a lot of people say (Bow: One at a time, one at a time) sure, ok, but this is, this kinda goes along with that. What if the woman doesn't want that and the man, there is always a man involved, I mean, we always say it's the woman's body but, is it the man's choices as well? And what if he does want the child, and the woman doesn't. Let's attack this one.

Daisy: OK. I believe that if it's a man and a woman that are involved in a mutual loving relationship and they're living together and they have the means to have that child? I believe in that case that the man has a fifty percent ' say.' Um, if it was a casual one night affair, I don't think he has a choice, he was simply sleeping with the woman and they were mutually using each other if they, if you like, I don't think he has any say in... that woman because she had a one-night stand with him for nine months she has to bear his child. That's absurd. (Vivian: But you guys)

Luke: But what if he's saying he wants to support it and he's willing to go through with it? It's up to the woman and to, to consider. (Daisy: Yeah, it is up to her.) But the man actually if he is a full a full, uh, like a full partner in the relationship has exactly 50%? (Daisy: I think that he does have same) even though it is the woman's body 50%, exactly that? (Vivian: 50%? Would you like it to be 40?) (Vivian: I don't know...)

Luke: What would you do? If it was 50% you couldn't really dc) anything?

Daisy: You have to take it to the court, in a court of the law. (Bow: What should the law be?) What should the law be? (Bow: Yeah.) Well, i guess that they have to take. (Bow: What do you think?) What do I think? I guess every situation's gonna be different I mean that's the thing, I mean, if the woman could possibly lose her entire career. Say she's in a country like Korea where you know, I mean, some women are discriminated against if they're married and have children in the work place. Um, if it's going to discriminate against her career and she's got, she's got a great future ahead of her, then, you know, I think we should be more thinking about the woman. If it's, if it's likely that she can have more children in the future.

Luke: I'm surprised you gave the man 50%, that's why I said it.

Luke: That's very generous.

Vivian: I also take into consideration that we're kind of thinking more along the western side, I don't know about Europe or up other countries, but in America a woman has six months maternal leave. So you know, before she even shows she can take off and come back after she's had the baby. In Korea, apparently, you don't have maternal leave, you only I mean, you can only leave for one month, I'm not even sure, but you certainly don't have six months.

Daisy: Two months.

Vivian: Two Months. Anyways but, either way, I mean, the situation is totally different that would put you (Daisy: Right) totally put you back if you were in a different country.

Daisy: It would, and I think that's something to take into consideration, but even in our country, I mean even though it's more accepted and there's a lot of people that, that generally do support pro-choice. You've gotta consider religion. There are so many religious factions. In every country, and me I grow up in a Catholic family. If my father heard me talk like this, he'd probably have a cow, but these are my choices, but I'm not making my, my choice on, you know, a scientific fact or, or even a religious or emotional fact. I see it as a necessity in our society. And I do believe it's a feminist issue.

Luke: Well. That's the idea here too. It's kind of in Korea or in Asia it's a catch 22, because according to society you know you're not supposed to, you're not supposed to fornicate. But people do, because it's a natural they wanna have sex, some you know, some accidents happen, and they have a baby. But then they make abortion illegal. And you're not, and if you're pregnant out of wedlock, then you're look down on in society. So, what are you supposed to do really in that case? (Vivian: Exactly)

  Bow: They set up things here, in these Confucian societies, (Vivian: Sure) you have no choices really.

Daisy: But, I do think it's become a little too common as Luke was saying before, there are some women out there that are using this as a form of contraception, which is just amoral you know, it's not acceptable. And I think that we need to kind of get back to educating people that this is not ok and it's, not.., apparently I was told by a doctor that it's not good for a woman. The more a woman has an abortion, the less chance she has of falling pregnant again.

Vivian: Right, and having a healthy baby too, and it causes pro, problems for herself, too.

Daisy: Yeah. So I think if we're gonna clamp down as a society on abortion. Not saying it's wrong that women still have these choices, but offer other al... (Vivian: Alternatives) alternatives and opportunities for them. OK. Say to the career woman. Alright. If you have this child these are the benefits that we can give you, this is the help we can give you and finding the child a good home. Um, You know with adoption and things like that. Think about if the government wants to, you know, move away from so many people having abortion, then offer other alternatives and options.

Vivian: The, the options certainly do have to be there, but also there is the moral aspect you know, which if you're doing it for contraceptive reasons or because it was an accident and you really weren't careful or because you could have it, but you couldn't. Anyways but we have to make that moral issue much more of a stronger point in society now and also, I mean, if you're doing it just you could have the baby but I just don't want to and this was just an accident. That should be like a public thing. People would.., it should be like a standard thing that we think that is not right, you know, I mean you should only do this, in the case of, this is my personal opinion, but if you were raped or, in extreme circumstances, if you're very young, and it really was an accident, and you have no other options left to you, I mean, then I think that should be an option for you.

  Bow: Um, this is kind of getting back to what we were talking about, or I was talking about before with the titles of pro-choice or pro-life. But, um, have you seen the movie? What is it? If Walls Could Speak, it is all about abortion? (Vivian: Yes, If walls could talk) well, if walls could talk, yes. And in Boston, there's a lot of um, abortion clinics, and there's a lot of pro-lifers who stand outside. There was a guy that close to my house, an abortion clinic that was close to my house and a guy went in there and killed one of the doctors. He's under the title pro-life which is kind of a contradiction because he's taking a life (Daisy: Exactly) He trying to say, but his excuse is that I'm trying to save many lives by taking one, But how does that work? you know, I don't understand that.

Vivian: It's like a vigilante kind of instance, and he is kind of contradicting himself but he's saying I'll save a majority versus one. (Daisy: Right, so many babies)

  Bow: I know what he's saying but, I mean, those women are gonna, have gone through the decision. The hard task of making a decision to go there, are not gonna stop there.

Daisy: Right. What is fascinating to me is, that here, there is so much talk. People's protesting outside abortion clinics today. But abortion has been around for centuries, and it wasn't performed by a doctor, it was, basically, you know, you know, you go to your local herb doctor or witch doctor, and you can, an abortion can be performed with simple herbs like ginger and parsley. And this has been going on for centuries. The African, a lot of tribes in Africa, they believe, that it is solely up to the woman as the giver of life and she is the representation of god and if she falls pregnant then it is her decision whether she brings that life forth. They believe that if that life is not wanted then why should it be brought into the world, it should brought into the world when it's loved. And they've been using these herbs for, for uh, centuries, to perform abortions, so it's not a modern day issue. It's not something, you know, in other cultures it is accepted within their religions. So you know, I, I've, I kind of don't understand why people are, maybe because it's just public now. I don't get it.

  Bow: That makes it a very easy decision for the man who had impregnated the woman (Daisy: Right) in that culture. (Daisy: Right) If it's up to her. OK. You do it, he doesn't have to pay for anything and he doesn't have to have the guilt.

Daisy: He doesn't have to go out and hunt goats or something.

Vivian: OK, so I think the moral issue should be, really emphasized. I mean first of all, men should take responsibility, it's not a hit and go kind of thing, you know, you should stick around even if you weren't involved, until the process is over, and through with whether it's carrying it out to the end, or watching it through until she has the baby. And I should al... always emphasize adoption being, you know, an option. (Daisy: An option.) You know, if all else fails, hey, you know, I honestly think if that would happen to me, adoption, you know, I couldn't find other options for myself, I would always consider adoption the last resort, you know.

Vivian: Abortion, the last resort?

Daisy: No. Adoption. I mean that should be something that's there. You know, if I can't keep this baby or if we can't raise it together or something. My parents couldn't raise it. That should always be.

Luke: I do agree that, that bringing a child to term and seeking out that route, is the noble thing to do, (Vivian: Sure) but I just don't think everybody is up to it. And if they're not up to it, I mean, (Vivian: Exactly) If they are like way to stressed and. way to freaked out and they're going through this turmoil. I think a lot of the formative stuff that goes into baby's character, probably happens in the womb before it's even popped up.

Vivian: You know they're always talking about people who are raped or in, you know, abused situations where it was a very tra... (Luke: traumatic) traumatic event. Event? Ok. Incident, and so maybe they don't even want this at all.

  Bow: Not always though, a friend of my grandmother's, I remember this story, when I was young, she, uh, I met her. She had a really great personality, I always thought of her as a funny lady. She was travelling in the Philippines, and was raped at, at night, she had no idea who was and she had the baby, and I remember the kid. And the kid was just like her, she raised the kid. And the kid was very happy. I believed it at that time, so it just depends on you know, who raises the kid. I suppose (Daisy: No, Yeah) ...

Vivian: We're talking about the person themselves not the baby too, I mean, it does depend on the person. You know, you could be a very young girl, and have been raped, I mean, this may be traumatic for you. Not only that but there are also health reasons, why like young children, if your body is not fully developed, you cannot carry a baby to term. It's dangerous to your body. And so a lot of doctors make that argument that, you know, if your body has not come to age yet, or it's not fully developed you're not up to bearing a baby yet.

Daisy: Well, not just that, I mean, you know, I mean, you've got a 17-year-old kid who's promiscuous and is pregnant, and you're going to leave it up to her to take care of her body for nine months? She could be drinking, (Vivian: Sure) she could be having more, you know, sex. She could be having, taking drugs she you never know. But the point that Bow made about his, the story about his grandmother I mean, in an ideal society. (Bow: Grandmother's friend.) Ah! Sorry. In an ideal society, we'd all be doing that, but it's not an ideal society. And it's up to us to provide other options or I think the only way we're gonna solve this problem is by educating our children. (Luke: Yeah) Letting them know that of course yes, abortion exists. Because if we, if we make it illegal again we're gonna have women hurting themselves. And there's gonna be butchers, you know in, uh, in abortion clinics. You know, just cutting these women up and it is just gonna go back. It'll be chaos. (Bow: Knowledge is power) So. It is. So, let's treat our kid let's teach our kids, um, so that this doesn't happen so we're not having them pregnant, they are not getting the diseases, and this doesn't become, even become an issue.

Luke: They have to have all of the options available to them. but it has to start at the very foundations of the education system again. (Daisy: Yes, yes.) It's like, and you have to, people have to impress of course. I think it’s uh, it's human nature you want to see if it's, something like that happens, you wanna see it come to term, you wanna see a new life brought into the world. That's the human, that's the basic fundamental human impulse. It's like procreate. That's the most beautiful thing. It doesn't work for everybody. It doesn't, it doesn't end happily in every situation. So for that reason I think it has to be an option. But ultimately I disagree with, with doing it. It's an, it's an, (Daisy: Abortion) it's a shitty thing that you have to go through. I'm sure. I'll never experience it, but women I know who've done it, it's been like, you know, the hardest dec.., the hardest decision they've ever had to make to go actually through with it.

Daisy: But then, the problem is that today, you know, actually I have a friend in Australia and she's had five abortions and she's 28. (Luke: Yeah) and she is using it as a form of contraception. And she said I just had my fifth abortion when I last went home, and I said to her "Do you know like know about the pill," or you know other forms of contraception. And she said, yeah but if I, if I take the pill, you know, I'm gonna gain weight, and this is just like, she's, just become such a superficial person where she can check herself in her lunch break, break into an abortion clinic, have an abortion, come out and go back to work and has no emotional attachment whatsoever.

Vivian: See? In that situation, it is extreme. (Vivian: Extreme and it's unexceptable, it's amoral, you know) Well, obviously, we have a group of people here, that.., you know we don't have any extreme people, you know, we're not extremely pro-choice or pro-life. But how about we attack this question? We obviously are kind of pro-life but also pro-choice, for the extreme pro-choice people of course they wanna say, hey, from day one, from day one the child is alive and you can't kill it after that day. Right? (Daisy: Pro-life people) Right. So I mean where exactly in your opinion is, does life begin? Because in America I think for most states, you know, abortion is legal or not, uh, or illegal in states depending on, it's their decision. But, um, usually I think it's two months is the... (Daisy: You can have an, you can have an abortion up to your first trimester) Right. Somewhere around there. So in your personal opinions how far can you take it or you shouldn't take it at all?

  Bow: I already answered that earlier I said that I believe it's right from the beginning even before the egg and the sperm meet. It's life in, everything. (Vivian: Do you think?) Yeah, I believe that. (Vivian: You too, Luke? How about you Daisy?)

Daisy: Yeah, well, you know, I believe that I said that, you know, shortly after conception I believe it's becoming a child, a baby, a human. But I don't believe that it's a life until it's connected with the mother and mother has connected with it. And I believe that when the woman makes that decision that I'm going to have this child and I'm going to love this child or I'm going to carry this child, so it'll be loved by someone else then it's a life and then it's a life that it's important. It's important.

Luke: It's becomes, I just think it's a life from the beginning but as it becomes more complex, it's a trickier decision. It's sorta like how you feel bad about like, uh, killing a bird, but you don't feel bad about squashing a bug. It's all life, you don't feel bad about plucking a dandelion. It's just higher things that we see as being more close to us are harder for us to try to snuff out. And as a child develops and grows and becomes more like us with our own like genetic material. I think that's when it really starts to become uh, like you.

Vivian: The reason why I ask this question is because, sure when we look at it that way it's, it's an, a simple answer, hey, you know, it's, it's life from the beginning or what not. But what if we made that situation more complicated, what if it was your daughter, Bow, and she was raped by some stranger on the street and, listen, listen, and she is only a teenager, she's young, she was raped, she doesn't know who the hell this person was, you know, and what if she is put in that situation, what if she didn't know she was pregnant, hey? Oh! And wait, what if she's a lot of people, no, a lot of people don't show until what they're third or fourth months. Am I right, Daisy? I mean, what if she found out after the first trimester, after a certain point where a lot of people don't agree, hey, after this point you shouldn't have it. But what if the situation is totally   she's too young, she's, you know, emotionally upset, and she cannot accept this. What if she made the choice that she doesn't want it. How would you feel about that?

  Bow: Now? (Vivian: Yeah) Well, that's the thing I'm the Dad of this person. You're a woman. What if it was you? What would you do? I don't, I don't know what I will do.

Vivian: Yeah, OK. What if it was your partner, and what if it is your female counterpart. Then it's your choice together, right?

  Bow: Yeah, I don't know what I would do. What would you do? If it was you?

Vivian: But see that's what I'm asking. When you simply say, when is, when does life begin, and how far can you take it, you guys earlier said from day one. But then when you complicate the situation you really can't give an answer.

Daisy: Well, you can. Because the law says after your first trimester you cannot legally have an abortion, and I, I would be pretty.., uh...

Vivian: But not in all countries.

Daisy: Well, almost all of them.

Vivian: But. Let's say that wasn't true, that's, what it is the whole.

Daisy: Say that wasn't true?

Vivian: No, no, no. I'm saying the whole issue, is they're still arguing where does life begin, where does it end, whether to make this legal or not. I mean that's what I'm asking. If the situation was complicated like that I mean, it was your own daughter, or your own mate, I mean, could you say?

Luke: Once they hit elementary school, it's too late to abort.

Vivian: Yeah, I think so too.

Daisy: Yeah, definitely. I don't know, I mean that's a tough, you know, I mean, that's basically the scientific evidence that most pro-lifers are arguing with with pro-choicers. And you know, I just, the scientific information, for me it's more of uh, a spiritual thing. I think that it is wrong to just use abortion as contraception which we've all said. But I do believe that it is a connection that, that connection makes life, our connection with each other, our relationships with each other, and my future relationship with my child when I have a child I know I'm pregnant and when I accept that and I'm already loving that child and bringing it into life, that's when the connection for me would be. And I think most women feel that way.

Luke: And I think it's easy to talk about, talk about, you know, when you're in a vacuum and saying, this is the right thing, and I'm morally like this, and I believe in this thing. But, uh, yeah, unless you have experienced all the emotions that come with it. And the actual going through with it. Who knows what you're gonna do? (Daisy: Exactly) I mean, you don't know what you think. It's easy to like take this hypothetical situation, (Daisy: Sure) and say, well you know, after thinking through it and stuff, and go through all this pedantic sort of B.S. But I mean yeah, doing it is, actually where you're gonna find your answer and being put in that situation you can't rationalize that.

  Bow: Well, that's why it is, what it is today. Everything's messed up, because everybody, not everybody has gone through it. So we have these opinions which we think this could be a basic foundation but people will still from now until the end of time they will still um, keep talking about this, (Daisy: Sure) and keep going through the same situations over and over again. You just keep your opinions, you know, like what you think and you try to do but you hope of course a situation like that would not happen. But if it does arise then you try to deal with it as it comes.

Daisy: Sure, that's fine. These people in the government (Luke: Speaking on your behalf of course) are going to make decisions about my future and my body, and I wanna have a say in that. I'm not impressed when conservative Rush Limbaugh or whoever else it happens to be in government at the time. Would stand up there and tell me what rights I have as a woman, and what I can do with my body, I'm offended.

  Bow: But there are also republican or conservative women in congress who're voting for these laws too.

Daisy: Yes, there are. But they have a right to talk about that. Because they are women, I accept that. But I don't, I, I, draw the line when I've got a bunch full of white male conservatives discussing my future and other women's future.

Vivian: Right. I agree with that, but I do believe, I'm sorry to go against all the females out there. But I do believe they do have a word in there, because, um, a very small word. I'm not saying a big word.

Luke: I think for a woman in a situation where it wasn't uh, a mutually mutual relationship this has happened, an experience to people I know. Um, not, not a close situation, all of a sudden a pregnancy came up unexpectedly the man was, I want no part of this, and the woman was like and don't sweat it, I don't want to make you a part of it. That's fine. If you're, if you're interested in pursuing it further than go ahead but, I'm choosing to go... go ahead with this anyway. And I think the guy eventually sort of just came around to the idea. He wanted to be a part of it... like she was gonna go through with it anyways. She was like I'll find a way, I\m really gonna do this, I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna do it. And then she came, and then the guy was just sort of like uh, she's doing it without me. That's half my kid, man.

  Bow: Actually, you know, I think that happens in a lot of cases, um, one partner makes the decision and it's like somebody is waiting for the other one to say, yes, we can do this. And then once you get that consensus, then you go ahead and then you find out what child rearing is, child bearing and child rearing and it turns out to be a very rewarding experience. Exactly. Thank you.

Luke: A rewarding experience.

Vivian: I just wanna touch on what that just reminded me of... was. What if the woman were to go ahead and consent to this and say that she wanted the baby and there was the male who didn't want anything to do with it. Doesn't he have something to say, when he says I don't want my child being born. What about that aspect of this story, no?

Bow, Daisy: No.

Vivian: No?

Luke: I don't think so, I don't think I'd feel in a place that I've ever tell a woman, you have to take that child's life, if she felt, she felt, if she felt that she was good enough to do it and she was up for the job, no one else would be more qualified than her.

Vivian: OK. Let's wrap up with maybe a comment from each of us. How do you feel over all and maybe then, some thoughts?

  Bow: Um, I think Daisy brought up a really pertinent point which was, which can kind of almost sum up everything which is that education is the key point. (Vivian: Definitely) And, uh, educate people, and let them know what's going on as much as you can, put more money into the schools for that purpose and uh...

Vivian: And the parents should get involved, too. It's not just schools, (Luke: Talk to your kids, to your kids) don't make it just the schools' or governments' responsibility.

Daisy: Hopefully, you know, if we are able to do that, if we are talking to our children, and we are teaching them in schools, getting them as much information as possible, and trusting their judgment, maybe they won't even get to the situation where they'll have to think about abortion. But, you know, we've got to do something.

Vivian: And sadly enough if you were put in that situation, this is my personal opinion, but I think each situation is different regardless if it's pregnancy, or violence, or what not. You have to kind of take it for each circumstance (Daisy: Right) on its own. We can't just judge everything.

Daisy: There is no black and white.

Vivian: Right.

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