听说大突破：谈谈堕胎与性教育

Abortion and Sexual Education
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, today we're talking about a real sensitive issue. It's abortion and of course sexual education, it all kinds of, you know, combines into each other.

Vivian: This is Viv.
Daisy: Yeap! This is Daisy. Yes, a very heated topic. I don't know what do you think. Bow.
  Bow: This is Bow! It's short for Bow Seaffas. Anyway, I think this is a hot topic all over the world. So let's dig our heels in and get going.
Luke: Yeah, the life-giving force that we all have inside of us, that procreative impulse, that just seems to keep on going like a spark that can never be snuffed out. Let's rap gang.

Vivian: Hello everyone welcome and uh let's introduce ourselves.

Luke: How are you doing? This is Luke!

  Bow: And I am Bow!

Daisy: And I am Daisy!

Vivian: And this is Viv!

Vivian: Today's topic is sexual education. Let's start off by saying, hey, where did you guys start off? I mean, how'd you

get your sexual education?

Daisy: Well, urn, well, actually I was kind of brought up in a very strict Catholic family and my mother was very reluctant to tell me about anything. Actually, my funny story, my sister asked me to go to the store and buy her some tampons. And I had never heard this word before, didn't even know what they were. So I went to the shop and I asked the guy for some tampons, and he gave them to me. Looking at these tiny little, cotton things and thinking, what the hell are these? I had no idea. So I gave them to my sister and asked her what they were. And she said, "Ask mom." And then I, urn, asked my mother and she wouldn't tell me for like two months. I kept hounding her, so she gave me this book that was like published in the sixties. And it still have pictures of women that use to wear those sanitary belts that they attached sanitary napkins, too. And I couldn't understand any of the words, I didn't even know what a penis or a vagina was.

Vivian: Oh! Daisy. This is brutal!

Daisy: And I was pronouncing the word, as "Penis," and "Vagina." And my cousin came to visit me, he was like talking about sex. And I said "I know what sex is." And he said, "No, you don't. What is it?" And I said, "well, it's when a man puts his penis in the women's vagina."

Vivian: Can I ask how old you were when you in first like.

Daisy: When I got this? I was probably 10 or 11 I guess. (Vivian: Really?)

Vivian: What about school education?

  Bow: Urn. There was an attempt at educating students when I was, I guess, in grade four or five. I must have been just pre-pubescent at that time. (Vivian: Right) 12, Thereabouts, 11 or 12. They would take all the boys and shuttle them into another room and they would leave all the other girls in the classroom that they were in. And then the gym instructor would take us all and explain basic things very nervously. He was a gym instructor. He was about physical education. He was, part of his job description was not teaching a bunch of horny pre-pubescent boys about sex. But, um, because the curriculum had changed, he sort of got stuck with the job. And I mean it's, it's kind of stupid. I mean it should, it has to be done. But the thing is by that time, a lot of kids really do know quite a bit about sex. Just because they have older brothers or sisters who sort of fill them in or stuff, um, or their friends do and they've learned stuff from their friends in a lot of cases. So I kind of knew a lot of stuff, but it still was good to have that. I think because it sort of, am, solidified a lot of things, just so that you wouldn't be embarrassed if it ever came up like, I know there's a lot of tension for me, because there were a lot of spaces missing in the whole sex thing that I wanted to get like, you know, get smart with eventually before I actually was gonna be with a girl. I didn't wanna like just get there and be like "doh", I've never learned that part, you know. So it is not necessary. (Daisy: They told you that?) No, I need not to study the general things, you don't wanna go into it, you know, your big romantic first encounter and end up looking like a spasm, just because you, you didn't want, you know, ask your buddy. What's that for? How do you use that or whatever.

Vivian: What about the parental aspects? I mean, did your parents ever like come in and ask you or tell you anything?

Luke: My father would sometimes come up to me, and ask me if there was anything that I wanted to know, that I was curious about. Is there any, you know, sort of things that you're, you know, you'll probably, you know, starting to become a man now? Is there anything that you're curious about? Wanna know about? Of course for me, I was just ' No, that's all right. Dad, I'm fine. And he said like, All Right. Great, see what's on TV. That was good enough for us.

Vivian: And then week, he'd come back.

Luke: Just make, just let you know, you know, I'm here, if you do wanna talk about this stuff, if you don't, that's probably, you know, just as good if not better. (Daisy: That's great.)

  Bow: He was available for that.

Vivian: How about you Bow?

  Bow: Um, my sexual education was a little bit warped. I think it, kind of all most make me uh, deviant almost because of it. Because it was kind of in uh, little, clips of things. So like I guess, Luke was saying it was for.., fourth grade or fifth grade. You start to think about it when it happens and... There are some, you know, promiscuous people in that grade too. Sure they are. There was, this couple they were supposedly going out and there's rumor that they had, had sex. So then, everyone in that grade was like really interested in what happened, what happened. And they said, well they did it. And then they both got sick. So, we thought that, that's like what happen after you do it, you know, too early or something you get sick. But then like the second part of it was after that, I actually, caught my parents doing it. It just like walked into the room and I thought like my dad was hurting my mother. So I said "Dad, you're hurting mom." And he said, "No, just go back to bed. We're OK!" And then where it gets worse is because I went to a Catholic school. They kind of masked sex education as health, in health class. You take health. But you're taught sex education by a really big and fat ninety-year-old nun who says if anybody laughs, I'm gonna whack you on the back of your head. People laughed and I laughed and then she said like this is the penis and this is the vagina... Boom! you got whacked in the back of your head. So now I like uh, when I have relations I feel like I'm gonna get whacked in the back of my head in a minute.

Daisy: Which you do anyway!

  Bow: Turns me on.

Luke: It still true that I feel if you laugh during any sort of sexual stuff, you usually get a slap in a face.

Vivian: Are we talking from experience here, right?

Luke: Oh, yes, sure. I haven't had sex, yet.

  Bow: Oh yeah sure. So, but I'm think uh, nowadays, like I sound like a real dad like: "When I was back in school," but, it's true like I think people are more aware of it, at least in North America, and they're making it a priority their kins take this sexed. As a whole class not as under the guise of health class.

Vivian: Right. I think in the past ten, maybe 15 years, especially in the American school system with the addition of sex education. It may not necessarily be a class you can select it as an elective when you enter high school. But usually you get this class during the end of your elementary or beginning of your junior high years, you get a couple of classes with the health teacher or the nurse. And they teach you, you know, all the basic functions of the body including, you know, all the sexual parts, and that has changed the educational system a lot. As matter of fact, there's lots of parents who are totally against having sexed in school. They don't like the fact of the school teaching it and so usually you get parental permission before your child can enter that class.

Daisy: Well, when I'm, I was in elementary school, um, I went to a Catholic school. And they didn't teach it in the school but what they did to satisfy the parents who wanted the education was have all the kids go to the local church after school. And sit down while the priest and the nun gave us sex education. Which is ironic.

Vivian: That sounds similar to Bow's situation.

Luke: That's why that, you know. Catholic school girls have such a bad reputation cause they do just the opposite of what they are not supposed to do.

Vivian: Exactly.

Daisy: But, um, basically, just the biological functions they taught us, you know, woman menstruate. And this is what happens and then when I went to high school I had a class like that it was called health. They were very liberal they taught us about contraception, sexual diseases, everything from drugs, tobacco, alcohol, all those things that you know I guess kids are tempted by. And I thought it was good. Actually, I found the class very interesting because I never had that education in elementary school, and I know more I think about those things like sexual diseases than any of my friends do because I remember that. I think it's really important to teach kids that, and give them that sexual education.

  Bow: The thing that's um, strange are the statistics like today, because you know, say from the forties for example to the sixties, or late fifties even though sex education it was kind of weird talk about it and it was really scientific and stuff, but there was less teenage pregnancy then, than there is now when they're really adamant about teaching these things in school. So like is it just that the kids are not listening or do they think they no more than more people? I don't know.

Luke: I think it's that, I think the reason that parents are against it is because they think that their children are becoming educated about the wrong things at too early an age, but the truth is that kids are growing up they're, they're maturing a lot faster. (Daisy: Right. Much more promiscuous than they used to be.) Not necessarily pre-mascuous, but I mean that they come of, they sort of come of age a little earlier and they, urn, they go through these changes a little earlier and the thing is they are going to get, they are gonna get educated, they are gonna learn about sex, they're gonna be curious about it, from a young age. It's probably better that like they learn about it on TVs and movies and music, and on the Internet. But they don't have that sort of, urn, educational aspect, and sort of like what you should do, maybe and what you shouldn't do. That's why sex education it's not like they're gonna, just go through life, not even hearing about sex, not wondering about it or curious about it, if they don't get sex education. But the sex education is good in that, it sort of says now just be smarter about it, you know, like put this on or use this or like maybe, maybe it's better to wait. You got to think of your options and if they won't get that out of a school setting, they just get sex is dirty, it's kinda interesting. They're just curious about it and they want to learn about it.

Vivian: For me, you know, my parents never sat me down, even to these day, we've never talked about that topic. I mean, we never had that birds and the bees little talk that everyone get. So my first contact with that kind of information was in elementary school, just like Luke said, we had the little class where the school nurse actually took you aside, and separated you and told you about the anatomy. Perhaps the girls could, you know, run into their menstrual cycle any time soon now. You should go talk to parents. And they gave us this little sample of the sanitary napkins. So when I first ran into my little accident, you know, I had that little sample that the teacher gave me and so 'Thank God!' You know, cause my mom and I never talked about that. And then my second encounter with that sort of information was in junior high, when we had the health class that Daisy was talking about. We had the health class where we talked about all sorts of things starting with drugs and going down to, you know, the aca-, uh, anatomy and sex and what not, and I think when you're younger, because children talk, uh, she went out with so and so and they did this and that, of course, you know, the movies and videos all sorts of information that you get on TV. There's a lot of things that aren't factual but you know lots of rumor things that you think may be true and sexual education kind of reinforces what you know, and what may not be factual and a lot of myths get cleared out of the way, you know, about STDs, and AIDS and drugs and getting this disease and that of course pregnancy and what not.

  Bow: Urn, yeah, O.K. But, I think, uh, one of the things that you're saying is that you're unfortunate to not have the talk with your parents, like everybody does, I don't think many people do get that talk actually. I think it's very rare that people do and I think like the movie "American Pie," that's why it was so funny with the father "Eugene Levvy" like "Son here's a couple of magazines for you." Everybody could relate to that, because that's what parents do. I think it's just kind of weird to talk to your kids about and they try to do it, cause they think it's their duty, but it doesn't really help. I don't think so.

Daisy: I think it's just probably; it's a really awkward thing. Because you know a mother-daughter or father-son relationship is, you know, extremely sensitive where that area is concerned. A mother doesn't or father doesn't want his daughter to be, you know, even having sexual feelings. So I think it's very difficult for them, but that's why I think, urn, because they're families like that, that do have difficulties discussing those things, that it is absolutely, urn, of the utmost importance, that education be in schools, compulsory. The government should make that the law whether parents don't like it or not especially in this day and age. I don't care what country you're in, even if you're in Korea, and they say there's no AIDS which is just, just misinformation, you know, there are, other sexual diseases out there, that can stay with you for life, and you know, that might not be life threatening but they are not certainly not comfortable, and you know, there's AIDS, there's... Oh, there're so many different things. (Vivian: STDs, sure) You know, other than pregnancy to worry about (Luke: Psychological things) Sure.

Vivian: I definitely agree with Daisy, there. That's definitely true and then also it doesn't just rely on the government or the schools. People always say, hey, it starts with the home and it really does, and for example, I mean, if you were to put yourself in those same shoes, if I had a daughter or a son, I mean, I eventually know I have to talk to them, sure, this is the position that many parents are put in is. I need eventually talk to my child about something like this but "Are they there yet", so it's kind of like, kind of, you know, test you out, maybe test out the waters by coming out and saying... "So, is there any thing you wanna talk about?" kind of like in Luke's situation. But then of course the kids in the same situation were there, it's an awkward topic for them, too. And so they're not gonna say, yeah. Dad actually I wanna know about this. So they just keep avoiding the topic. So you never end up talking about it even though your child maybe 16, 18, 20. You never want to admit to yourself. Oh, my child is sexually active or is going to be, and so you never wanna really go in and you know. Yes, Bow.

  Bow: Um, yeah, that’s exactly right. That's how I felt when I first had my daughter, and I thought "oh" I'm just gonna be a strict dad and she's never gonna have sex, she's not gonna be with boys and all this stuffs. And then I met, uh, another father, who has a similar situation. We called him a Cooter. Cooter's opinion was that, that's so stupid. I mean she's just gonna rebel against you even more, she gonna become like a prostitute, she's gonna do it for money, you know it's just a natural res.., res.., natural thing, you know. That's what people do.

Vivian: God forbid your daughter does that ten years from now.

  Bow: Yeah, ok. But um, anyway I kind of realized, you're exactly right, and I can't do that, I can't like, you know lock her up, and put a chastity belt on her, or get the chastity rings... I just have to kind of try to raise her, naturally in hope like she'll be smart enough to make her own decisions. (Daisy: Hope that she has good judgment)

Vivian: I definitely think that the more informed you are, the smarter you are, think about it, when you look at two 18-year-olds, for example, and you have one that is very much educated and aware of her surroundings, and current events and what not. One that is not so much aware of everything and informed. When you see the ignorance and the naivete of one child versus the other, you know, that person that has more knowledge, you know, yeah they're, they know what's going on, but then also they're gonna be, more aware of the bad things and they are gonna be smart about their choices and decisions versus the ones that are not so aware and so out of curiosity and ignorance she's gonna go in there and most likely be in a lot more dangerous situations.

Luke: I think all kids respond to, uh, to just frankness and openness. And it's really hard to do with a topic like that, but I find that like coddling kids and just going like goo-goo ga-ga and stuff often they're just like, OK, someone's making stupid voices to me. That's not how they really talk when they're among themselves, so I think they'd really respond to, to a subject like that which is very sensitive if you can just show them you're comfortable talking about it like at an early age even if you are not. If you can just sort of I don't know be open about that stuff, be available to talk about those sort of things. I think it wouldn't be such, such a hard thing to talk about because it really is a natural thing, you know it's such an obvious thing and it's just all this other sort of social conditions that make it sort of dodge to talk about, you know.

Vivian: And who here at the age of 15 or 16, didn't think that they were mature enough or adult enough to hear something like this, when your parents do talk to you like that you're "Yeah, whatever", and then it just makes you revolt against them more, when they speak to you at such a level, you know, when they if your parents had actually talking you at the age of 15 and sat you aside and sai. "Hey, you're an adult now, you're mature enough to listen to this. Hey, let's just talk to each other like adults. This is how it is, and if you're gonna get involved or I would prefer that you don't let me know this is how it goes. If they are very frank with you, I mean, I honestly think that, yeah, I would probably respond, not only with that, you know, the whole sexual aspects but with many other aspects as well, at a much more mature level. And probably grown up a little bit.

  Bow: You're saying that if your parents were frank with you then (Vivian: Yeah, I'm just) I disagree with that. (Vivian: You do why?) Because I think the point that you made that teenagers, urn, do think that they are mature because of that reason they don't wanna listen to anybody. And I think you don't realize that until you become an adult, and I think if you're frank with them, yeah, they could be "yeah, whatever, whatever, whatever."

Daisy: Yeah, but it depends on the attitude that you have towards them, I mean if you're treating your children like a baby the entire time, I mean that, (Luke: And suddenly come up and say, OK, let's talk about the birds and bees.) Exactly.

Luke: I mean you have to open with them even from a young age like just sort of let them know like "this is what makes girls girls, this is makes boys boys," and like start at the really basic stuff like that, I mean.

Vivian: Cause the entire raising the child experience is an educational thing from very the beginning it leads gradually, and slowly, and eventually toward the sex education thing as well.

  Bow: OK thanks. I'll remember that.

Daisy: Well, you know, I just think that we're so way beyond on this discussion I don't think it's even about how we approach it with out kids any more. I think it should be forced down their throats. I think whether the government has to do that, the school has to do that, or the parents, it should be made some law that makes it compulsory. Because I am not, I don't want my child, if, even if she can't talk to me even if I have a great relationship with my child, if he or she can't talk to me, I wanna know she's getting that information somewhere else. (Vivian: Right) Because it's just way to dangerous. You take Korea, for an example, you know, here's a country that has basically, my niece, I asked what she gets in school. And they're still just giving them the biological processes, you menstruate, the penis is inserted into the vagina and so on, and so on, so on. And she really knows nothing about how to protect herself from pregnancy. She doesn't know anything about sexual diseases. She still thinks, and so does the rest of Korea, which just makes me insanely angry, that you can get AIDS by drinking out of the same cup as someone, you know, I mean, it's just misinformation, and the thing, this is a country that has nightclubs that have professional, you know, dm, hookers working there. And it's not just Korea. It's the rest of Asia as well, and urn, it's ok to have hookers working in nightclubs as, you know, girls that peel your fruit or pour your drink. But it's not ok to teach the rest of the country that you need to wear a condom that you need to protect yourself, that there's AIDS, there's other sexual diseases out there.

Luke: What are the names of those night clubs?

Vivian: Anyways, I do have to agree with Daisy on one point is the actual amount of education you are getting and at what age, too. As I was saying before, I learned about the anatomy in elementary school. But then like said especially when you are at that age you're very sensitive and you hear a lot of information and that's not actually factual, a lot of it is, just a lot of gossip that kids pass around. Hey, if you do this, you get this. This happens to you such and such. Literally, ninety percent of it is all false, I mean, its false information and you should be informed with factual information whether it’s from school, or homes or whatever. And even to this day, even from adults that I speak to, my friends. There's a lot of people that are totally misinformed about certain things, I mean, they may know it up to a certain point, but then that they don't know the, the rest of it. You know, I mean I'm talking about 30-year-old adults who don't know the, the entire picture, you know, and I mean, when these children are going up to junior high and they know basically the, the little skeleton, but they don't know the meaty part of it, and then they hear all these rumors. Even though, you think you're supposed to know you're not so sure, and when you hear these rumors. Oh, that must be true, I mean, if they get factual information instead of being misinformed by their peers, wouldn't that change a lot of things.

Luke: Sure. I was growing up, uh, a lot of, uh, people that I knew who were starting to experiment with sex under the understanding that you couldn't get pregnant the first time. And you couldn't get pregnant if you did it in a certain position, if the girl was on top or something. So that was sort of a form of birth control, you know. I wonder how many people got themselves in a lot of trouble. It's the first time. Forget about it.

  Bow: Girls believe that. You win there.

Vivian: I have a totally prime example; this is just something recent that I had recently read. I heard that in Korea a form of, I think, I don't know, if it was Korea or America whatever, but maybe twenty years ago, a form of birth control was pulling out before the male ejaculated. (Luke: It helps.) It helps, yeah, but that is not 100 percent. That is not (Daisy: Coitus interrupt us) contraception. That is totally not, you know, and I was trying to explain, no actually. You know, it leaks out a little bit, and then also even, and that's totally not contraception. And then the second fact which wasn't a fact was, um, there were many women that were confused as to when you're menstruating if you have intercourse, you couldn't get pregnant, or when you're menstruating that was the time when you do get, you know, pregnant, which was true. And so they were confused as to which was actually true. And so that is very dangerous information to have, if you are on the wrong side of.

Daisy: Well, that's the rhythm method, and that's what the Catholic Church tried to get everybody to use it and that's why Catholic parents have so many children. (Luke: That's why it's the main religion in Christianity.)

Vivian: If you're to go to a doctor, ask him if this is true or not, he probably would laugh in your face, because, first of all, this is not a way to, you know, protect yourself, and perhaps if you don't wanna conceive children that is not the way to go about things. And second, it isn't true, you know, I mean that is totally false information.

Luke: But it's hard, if people don't, if kids don't have anywhere to go to other than friends' who also don't know the score, and if parents aren't really forthcoming with that kind of information and they don't get it in the schools, like where are they gonna get it.

Daisy: That's why, you know, I urge, you know parents to go and join their PTA to write their local member to get their governments to do something to make it compulsory in schools.

  Bow: I think it is actually in the States (Luke: It is.) (Vivian: In America) the problem is, with that is, even though like anything else, US history is compulsory, but you gotta, a lot of kids in the poor neighborhoods don't go to school. (Daisy: Right) So they are not showing up for the class, you know.

Daisy: Well that's why I think that there needs to be some type of standard in, you know, in sex education in schools, and as Bow said, you know, of course there are the poor kids, you know, in poor neighborhood that aren't getting that education. But there are you know, I, I, the government even in the states, is trying to do things about that I mean, they've got welfare offices set up and people that go out, they talk to women who are single mothers having children and give them information about, you know, how to protect themselves both from sexual disease, and pregnancy. And I think it has to be a national effort in any country that you live in. If you have children and you're not involved, then you're not doing enough. You have to go, you have to write to your local member. You have to go to the village meeting, discuss these things they're important. And if you're not involved, then if your child does get pregnant then you are responsible for that.

Vivian: And I think this eventually leads to another question that is actually a very hot issue, especially in the western countries these days. I mean, what if all of this sexual education, it didn't work out in the end. Hey, what if, uh, it just didn't work out the way you wanted it for, your daughter or son? What if they did get pregnant or what if they got someone else pregnant, they'd been a situation where what? They may be students and they couldn't finish their education or they'd be force to have home education. There is a lot of situations going on out there. And of course even as a young adult or an elder adult, you may get pregnant and that is not the situation that you had planned on. There are some options out there for you and they're difficult options, and we can discuss some of the options first, and see how we all feel about this, um, obviously the topic is adopt.., um, I'm sorry, adoption? Ok. Those are one of the choices, yeah, that's one of the choices, but abortion. It is a really hot steamy issue, lots of people get very urn, sensitive about this one, so let's start off by saying like where we kind of stand. Are you pro? Or Are you against abortion? Are you for abortion? And second let's talk about the choices that are involved with that. You wanna start up Bow? Are you (Bow: Me?) Luke?

  Bow: Um, I think that.

Vivian: What side are you on first?

  Bow: I don't choose either side, I'm neither pro-choice nor pro-life. But I do, I believe that, um, there shouldn't be an abortion if people are, can be responsible, if they have the ability to be responsible, but they're just choosing not to be because oh, it's gonna be so hard on me. I don't agree with that. I agree in extreme situations where depending on how that child is gonna be raised, if the child is gonna grow up to be, you know, raised in a terrible environment then maybe the best choice would be to, you know, go ahead for the abortion. Um, if it had to do with a mother's health, um, basically yes.